The following e-mail was received from a good friend who is a Christian and attends a fundamentalist church in Illinois, near Springfield. His identity will remain secret because if his church gets wind of his doubts he will be asked to leave. Only in a church are you accepted for what you believe and kicked out for what you know. Here is his e-mail, followed by my reply.
“I'm actually enjoying religion. We had friends from Springfield who are the age of our kids drop by yesterday. We first became friend with their parents twenty years ago. They are very conservative members of the Church of Christ. Their son isn't. He and his wife are attending a "liberal" Church of Christ. He agrees with me on many issues and in fact said, "The church has to change. To think you are the only ones going to heaven doesn't make sense." I told him I had a book he might like to read and gave him a copy of mine. Change comes slowly, but it always happens
Hi xxxxxxx
As to your “liberal” Church of Christ friend….good for him. However, as a practicing skeptic I would posit that perhaps it might make more sense if rather than wait for the church to change, just acknowledge the wonderful fact that he has changed. He will never win an argument with his preacher. It is impossible to make someone understand something if their livelihood depends on them not understanding it.
As you said, change comes slowly. For many it can be difficult and painful. But it can also be exhilarating. Evolution is a perfect example. Evolution is a fact. When we accept that fact, the very foundation of the Christian religion is swept away. There was no Adam and Eve. There was no “original sin”. The notion that we are all miserable sinners because we “fell from grace” is exposed for the deception that it is. We just happen to be primates that developed huge brains. That’s it. Mark Twain said, “We do no end of feeling and mistake it for thinking.” He was right. When we allow reason, rather than emotion to guide us; when we begin using evidence rather than faith to lead us, we begin to make progress.
Religion has always shackled learning, from Galileo's time for making the daring claim that we went round the sun rather than the sun around us, (for which he was placed under house arrest for the remainder of his life) up to the present, where stem cell research is shackled because of the erroneous belief that a few cells called a blastocyst contain a human soul. If we have been brought up to think that we are at the center of the universe, it becomes rather difficult to accept the fact that we are not. On the other hand, once we begin to realize that there is not a big daddy in the sky watching our every move and reading our every thought, it can be a tremendously liberating experience.
Here is what Carl Sagan had to say about it.
“For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people. “
Some argue that at some time in our distant past, religion played a part in our survival as a species. That could be, but I think it has as more to do with power than survival. From the Pope, and his red robed, minions with their funny hats, to Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Billy Graham, and the Grand Ayatollah, right on down to the “humble” ministers in the smallest churches, their very jobs depend on convincing us that they have a special mission from god.
Again, it is impossible to make someone understand something if their livelihood depends on them not understanding it. But whether they care to understand it or not, here are the facts.
Modern humans evolved from archaic Homo sapiens (thinking man) about 200,000 years ago, as the subspecies, Homo sapiens sapiens. (That would be us)
If we are to believe the Christian bible, this means that for 196,000 years, god let his most favored creation suffer unbelievably from cold, starvation, disease and terror while he stood by twiddling his thumbs and did nothing. Then about 4000 years ago, apparently he suddenly awoke and revealed himself to us, then sealed the deal a couple thousand years later by having his “son” born in one of the most remote places on the face of the earth, where the news would not leak out for over 300 years. His son proclaimed (John 14:6) that unless we bought into his story, we would suffer eternal agony in hell. Since as of this writing there are 6.8 billion of us on the planet, two thirds of which reject Jesus out of hand, then 4.5 billion of us living and breathing right now are going to spend eternity in hell. Let alone the billions who have already died. And of course since god is omniscient, he knew from the beginning this was all going to happen.
Since the Jesus myth sprang up, literally thousands of religions have sprung up also, all claiming to have a special truth not proclaimed by all the others. This is beyond foolishness. It borders on the criminal for the following reason.
When we, as adults, expose children to unfalsifiable claims, we are engaged in a clandestine kind of theft. We are stealing from these young people their ability to reason . We are robbing them of their critical thinking skills. If we were caught stealing their dolls or bicycles we could (and should) go to jail for it. But the more flagrant crime; the theft of their reason and critical thinking skills, goes unpunished. They will grow up with a self centeredness that causes them to think that the earthquake killed everyone else when it brought the church down around them but a loving and merciful god spared them.
Now for some opinion.
Karl Popper came up with the idea of falsifiability. In my opinion, the most egregious sin one can commit is to fill young children’s heads with unfalsifiable junk. Whether it’s teaching youngsters that their prophet rode a white horse to heaven and back, dug up some magic plates and reading stones, that dead men come back alive or that their god used an army of monkeys to build a 30 mile long land bridge, it is all unfalsifiable junk. (One exception…Mormonism’s history is so recent that it can be demonstrably shown to be false.) We know these religions can’t all be true for the simple reason that they contradict one another. But there is an overriding reason. As noted, with the exception of Mormonism there is no way we can prove any of them false. Let me give an example of what I mean. Let’s say that I made the claim that I did not write any of this; that instead a hand appeared over my keyboard and wrote everything you are reading. Since there are no witnesses, how can you prove me wrong? You can’t. I have just made an unfalsifiable claim. Ever notice how these religions spring up by revelation with no witnesses? Moses on the mountain; no witnesses. Mahomet in the cave; no witnesses, Joseph Smith talking to the angel, Moroni (rhymes with baloney) no witnesses.
Now for a philosophical question. The kind you and I enjoy.
Imagine for a moment (don’t worry you won’t go to hell for using your imagination) that we were to find out that there is no god, that there really was no Jesus; that all that stuff is just made up; that we live in a natural world where dead men don’t come back alive, horses don’t fly and donkeys and snakes never once uttered a word. How would you change? How do you imagine your fellow C of C members would change? If the answer is no change at all, then why do we need a god? We truly can be good without god.
However, if the answer is that we would be more likely to commit crimes against one another, then what does that say about us? It says we are a sorry lot indeed. The people who claim on the one hand that there is a god and on the other hand say they would act differently if they found out there was not one, are in my opinion, not only a sorry example of humanity but unbelievably stupid to boot. If there is an all knowing god do they really think he/she/it can’t see right through to their rotten core?
My opinion is that if there really is a god, there will be a lot of Christians, who will be in for an ugly surprise after they die.
I hope you forward this to all your religious friends. Ask them to point out the flaws in my arguments. If they find them delinquent in some way, and they can offer evidence refuting them, I am always open to change if the evidence calls for it. I am not open to arguments from faith. Faith is a free ride and we should all know there is no such thing as a free ride. Faith requires no work, no intellect. If arguments from faith were valid I would be consulting Osama bin Laden and his 19 hi-jackers. No one has shown stronger faith than them.
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Thanks for the thought provoking article. You said, "Faith requires no work". You are absolutely right! Getting facts can be extremely difficult. My life-long quest for knowledge has helped me understand that. When it came to religion, I took the easy way out until about fifteen years ago. These last fifteen years have been a challenge for me as a fundamentalist Christian when I chose to be guided by facts when evaluating my faith. To my surprise, I couldn't find the word "fact or facts" in my Bible. Faith however,appears 238 times. This said a lot for me. My Bible defines faith as "--the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen". It it can't be seen, how do you know it exists? So perhaps this is why Paul wrote in Colossians 2:2-4 " That their hearts might might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledge of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ. In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. And I say,lest any man should beguile you with enticing words." He is saying it is a mystery which "hides wisdom and knowledge" and don't be fooled by "enticing words" like knowledge. This immediately raised red flags. Had I bought into just another mystery religion much like those we call pagan? As you might guess, finding answers and feeling compelled to share those answers with my fellow fundamentalists has gotten really interesting. As one who thrives on confrontation, this provides me with opportunities to have an exciting religious experience every Sunday.
ReplyDeleteA "Springfield" friend
Regarding the word "fact" missing from the scriptures; there also is nowhere to be found in the bible any praise for intelligence.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, the leading member of the political party favored by fundamentalist Christians went out of her way at the Tea Party Convention to criticize our president for being an intellectual inferring he is unfit to make the critical military decisions necessary to protect this country. This is in spite of his recent increase of troops to the war zone and using the weapons developed by intelligent scientists to reduce our loss of troops. When Christians pray for the sick, it likly they are healed by the advances of science. Some things just don't make sense.
ReplyDeleteSpringfield friend
Dr. Bart Ehrman in one of his many books asked the question, "What can you,do or anyone else, do when confronted with facts that contradict your faith? In his case he "left kicking and screaming". Are there other options? I think so. If I may, allow me to suggest one. First accept the facts and understand just how religious traditions develop. A close examination will reveal that religions change and most often building on the traditions of others. Newer scriptures are "discovered" to support that belief. There are facts to support this claim. In the case of Christianity, we observe Christmas, Easter, Valentine's day, and Halloween as special days. Here are the facts. All originated from pagan tradition. As Bart pointed out, even if you recognize this fact, it is very difficult to simply leave your faith. My solution is simple, but some would consider it hypocritical. If you understand that family and close friends who have not reached your level of understanding would have severe anxiety and even a sense of personal guilt (like where did I go wrong) over your leaving the religion of your family and friends. Most of us would never deliberately do anything to hurt our family and friends. If you understand the truth about religion and realize you are following traditions that go back perhaps to the Egyptians, does it really matter. We have no trouble doing that with our Christian-pagan holidays. I know Santa doesn't land on the roof with presents, but I would never destroy the joy children get from Christmas, Easter (with hunting for eggs) and sending valentines. Are we hypocritical when we enjoy it with them? Are we hypocritical when we allow our family members and friends to go to their graves with a "hope" of no pain, hunger, fear etc? If you as a non-believer are correct, this will be the case of all those who die not just selected few. Having said all that, doesn't mean you don't have the responsibilty to help your friends and family to understand their holidays and religion. You may be surprised at just how many actually feel as you do. My own children went along with our Santa tradition long after they knew better. As they learned the truth, they didn't want to spoil the joy we shared together. The solution may not be acceptable to some, but everyone has to find his/her comfort zone.
ReplyDeleteSpringfield friend
Testing (not my faith, but my ingenuity to see if I can remember how to sign on to comment).
ReplyDeleteAh yes!!! I got on! I have been waiting a long time for a new post, Charlie. Thank you! I loved "Hoop Snake," but wanted more! I know a person raised in Bulgaria without religion. She smiles when the mothers at the park go off on the virtues of religion. I can see why: a couple are catholic, a couple evangelical, one mormon and one islamic. One day, while driving home from the park, it hit me why she smiles: she knows you can be good without god and very bad, indeed, with him.
ReplyDeleteTo listen to these devout women, their very existence is tied to his will. If things are going well, god is blessing them. If things are going bad, god it testing them! Now, how can you argue with "logic" like that? Something I knew that she probably doesn't understand, is that each of them was listening to the other and secretly thinking, "Oh dear. Such a nice person. Too bad she is going to hell. If only I could make her see the light and join in the TRUE faith." I know there is one other possibility: each was thinking,"Oh well, She is going to hell, but it is her own fault for not accepting the TRUE faith."
I might have less trouble with christianity (or any other religion, for that matter) if the believers really chose to follow in the footsteps of their creator and live life based on love. Instead they want to kill each other.
Now, that is just not nice.
Thanks again. I love the statistics you provide!
BTW, I heard yesterday that the most spoken language in the world is now chinese! Interesting, huh? God must be mad at us. We are losing world domination with all these wars and things. I wonder how that' working for Sarah and the gang?
California gal
California gal, makes a good point. If we were determined to live a life of love and helping the less fortunate, there wouldn't be time for wars. It wouldn't matter as to your faith (things hope for) or church doctrine. If you help others find what they need, you might find you are getting what you want. Helping others can make you feel like a better person. In fact, you are.
ReplyDeleteJim
I think it would be helpful to ask ourselves; if I could start over, what would I teach my children. If you were a Hindu, would you really want to teach your children that one of your many gods; the one you call Ram, built a 30 mile long land bridge using the labor of devoted monkeys? Would you really want to teach them that there is a huge ice stalagmite in a cave in the mountains of Kashmire that resembles a penis (sort of) and that it is holy?
ReplyDeleteIf you were a Muslim would you really want to teach your children that your prophet Mahomet rode a winged white horse to heaven and back.
If you are on the island of Madagascar do you think you would still want to dig up grandma and grandpa every few years so that they could be carried around town and introduced to your younger children?
If you are a Catholic do you really want to teach your children that that little wafer and goblet of wine is really (not symbolically, really)..... the body and blood of a long dead religious zealot who threatened that if we didn't believe in him we would all go to hell?
Or would you rather wait until your children are mature adults with critical thinking skills and can choose which of these myths they prefer to believe? Or choose none of the above.
Their is a yawning gap between Santa Claus and JC. Christmas tales are only told once a year, not reinforced two or three times a week. And Santa never once threatens young children that they will go to hell if they don't believe in him. Older kids will eventually tell younger ones they have been duped on this Santa Claus thing. I still remember my sister spilling the beans to me as we walked barefoot along a gravelly lane with one of her little girlfriends.
But this religion thing is different. As noted above, it doesnt really matter much what kind of nonsense is instilled in and reinforced in a child's brain. Once infected, unless the child is super intelligent, that child will grow up and infect the brain of the next generation with the same nonsense. This explains why most religions are the result of where we were born. Is the fact that one is born in Alabama or Afghanistan really a good enough reason to embrace the Baptist belief or the Muslim belief?
Isn't it strange that all religions think all other religions are non-sensical. This is why I can say, as a skeptic, I agree with every one of them.
Or as Richard Dawkins put it in his great book,"The God Delusion", "If you were born in Arkansas and you think Christianity is true and Islam false, knowing full well that you would think the opposite if you had been born in Afghanistan, you are the victim of childhood indoctrination.
ReplyDeleteCharlie, as always you provide provocative arguments to stimulate one's thinking. Thanks for not letting me off easy. Let me respond to some of your points. You said, "Regarding the word "faith" missing from the scriptures; there is also nowhere to be found in the bible any praise for intelligence". I was certain you were right about the "intelligence" statement, but as always I did my research. If you use any other version but the KJV, you would be correct, but the KJV uses the word in Daniel 11:30. It is the Hebrew biyn which means "to separate mentally or distinguish". The Genesis creation account is followed immediately by, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it". So from the beginning people were not only discouraged, but forbidden to learn the difference between good and evil. This is a strange rule for a god who wouldn't tolerate the smallest of indiscretions. Evidently the writer of Daniel had forgotten that verse.
ReplyDeleteYou said, "I think it would be helpful to ask ourselves, if I could start over, what would I teach my children?" Actually, I have asked myself that question and the answer is, I'd probably take the approach my parents took with me and if I remember correctly, the attitude of your parents. They allowed, me as I think your parents did, to decide for ourselves. I was encouraged to attend church with them and my older brother and I did, but we always skipped out before preaching (real church) and sat in the car. They never scolded us for that. Unfortunately my wife and I would never have allowed that. As you may know, I had two brothers (Bob and Connie) who chose the path you did. Bob is dead now, but I doubt he is in any pain.
For others reading this, Charlie and I go back well over sixty years. We became good friends in grade school and stayed friends up to this day, with a 50 yr. period in which we lost contact. We were the "original" Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn. I'm sure not which was which. Anyway we have always been able to disagree without taking things personal. When he resurfaced a few years go, I was delighted that he had been reading the kind of books I had. You will always find that his comments are well thoughts out and hard to refute. Keep it up Charlie.
Jim
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteStimulating comments, guys. Jim, if I sound angry, forgive me. I gave up on church when the pastor retired and the interim pastor told him he had to go somewhere else to prevent "interference" with the new pastor. The straw before was when we were racing to war the first time with Iraq and a parishoner screamed (literally) at me that I was a traitor because I thought we should explore other options before we bombed the citizens into oblivion for the sins of their leader. These attitudes were exhibited in the (liberal) Lutheran church where I went every Sunday morning to sunday school to teach the children songs. My favorite was "It's about love, love, love. That's what it's all about." I am sorry, but if there is a god, I find it hard to believe the folks he will "lift up" are so often the warmongers.
ReplyDeleteThanks Charlie and Jim. I enjoy reading your responses to eachother. Interesting AND informative!
California gal
I tell people I couldn't destroy one's faith if I wanted too. First of all, nearly all Christians I know believe what they believe because of their parents, friends or as a result of a highly charged emotional sermon. If they didn't develop it without the influence of others, it really isn't their faith.
ReplyDeleteThey simply got it from others who in turn had gotten their faith the same way. If you no longer believe, it is usually because you learned the truth about what was given you. So, how can you lose something that didn't belong to you first place?
Jim
California gal, I had the same experience you had. I was treated the same way because I thought going to war with Iraq was a horrible idea. I pointed out what was likely to happen and my predictions were 100% accurate. I kept asking, "If Jesus said love your enemies, how can you justify killing them not to mention all the innocent people who were his victims?" To this day, only one son will admit I was right. They will still look me straight in the eyes and say, "I still think you were wrong." So, I have a pretty good idea what you went through. You just have to keep your head held high and be true to yourself. Good luck.
ReplyDeleteJim
Anonymous or California Girl said; "I know a person raised in Bulgaria without religion. She smiles when the mothers at the park go off on the virtues of religion. I can see why: a couple are catholic, a couple evangelical, one mormon and one islamic. One day, while driving home from the park, it hit me why she smiles: she knows you can be good without god and very bad, indeed, with him.
ReplyDeleteWhich brings me right back to the Dawkins quote I posted above: ""If you were born in Arkansas and you think Christianity is true and Islam false, knowing full well that you would think the opposite if you had been born in Afghanistan, you are the victim of childhood indoctrination."
“I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world.”
Richard Dawkins
Someone, (I think it was Harris) said, "Good men do good things and evil men do evil things but for good men to do evil things it takes religion.
Wish we could get more people into these discussions at charliesitzes.blogspot.com. I have several drafts waiting in the wings.
ReplyDeleteCharlie, that is the problem. People simply don't want to be forced to defend their beliefs. I firmly believe that if you feel a religion can't stand the test of an objective evaluation,it is probably not worth being a part of it. But herein lies the problem. Once you learn that your "sacred" beliefs are primarily based on the mythology of ancient civilizations of the past, what do you do? Most take the Scarlet O'Hara approach and say to themselves something like, "I just don't want to think about that now", and avoid any further discussions. They may slowly pull away from their religion or find other ways to deal with the problem. Very few will take the approach I have chosen. That is to learn more about religion than the "professionals" and attempt to share that knowledge in a non-threatening" way during my religious participation. You notice I said, "attempt". Anything that you show a person that contradicts their long held beliefs is threatening to them. Since they believe the bible is the word of God, I try always to quote directly from the bible to make my point. Even this angers them. My favorite quote in response to that anger is, "Look! I didn't write the bible; I just read it!" Does it work? To my surprise, people are now approaching me for more information. It happens every Sunday and I suggest sources to find information that will help them. Last Sunday, Mike (a member) gave a lengthy explanation of the difference in Peter's teaching and Paul's. He pointed out that contrary to our belief, we can't be like the Jerusalem church simply because they were all Jews and would not accept Paul's Greek interpretation Jesus teaching. That hits at the heart of our "being like the first church" belief which excludes all churches. I was so impressed with Mike and his level of knowledge, but then realized I had given him a copy of my book which explains all this. I know I can't personally change the opinions of people directly. I even had a friend one Sunday ask me, "Do you really think you are going to change the minds of anyone?" I said, "NO, I really don't". I smiled and left it at that because that's not what I'm trying to do. All I really want to do is provide them with information that will allow them to do the changing themselves. The young people are doing that themselves upsetting their parents by rejecting their years of brain washing. Getting people into discussions such as yours should be seen as healthy. Suppose they do learn something to change their beliefs, what will the lose? The preacher would say, their soul for a lot of self-serving reasons. On the positive side, they would be losing fear and guilt. So keep us thinking!
ReplyDeleteThanks Jim
ReplyDeleteI just try to go where the evidence leads.
I have always been skeptical of belief without evidence. If we can just pull a belief out of thin air, or adopt someone else's belief, how we can be sure they didn't pull their belief out of thin air also?
I'm reminded of a joke my Dad used to tell which was set in that time long ago when people had "barn dances" where they would gather in somebody's barn loft and square dance half the night away.
A guy was visiting his friend in the hospital with a broken leg. Seems they had been to one of those dances the night before and the patient, who had drank a little too much moonshine, had bet someone 50 bucks he could jump out of the loft and fly around the barn.
"Why'd you let me do that!!?" said the guy with the broken leg. "Let you!!", came the reply. Hell, I had 20 dollars on you myself!!
There has never been any evidence that horses or people have flown..that donkeys can talk, (much less snakes) or that dead people actually come back alive...but there are billions of people intoxicated with the moonshine of religion that insist on believing it. We are all ignorant about most things. But being ignorant and willfully ignorant are two different categories of ignorance.